Everyone.
Welcome back to friends with fertility.
Today, we have Lisa Schuman.
Welcome, Lisa.
Thank you for having me.
She is a published author, a licensed therapist, an award winning researcher, and the only therapist chosen to testify before the state senate judiciary committee to legalize compensated surrogacy in New York.
Lisa is the host of the podcast building your family, the author of the book, building your family, the complete guide to donor conception, and the creator of building your family community platform.
The only expert created education and support community designed to provide the latest tools and provide evidence based guidance to help you become more informed at any point of your journey from preconception through parenthood.
So That's a lot, Lisa.
Uh, tell us how you got into this.
This is such a, like, very specific niche market.
What's what led you to this path? I started my professional path when I had my own infertility treatment as I talk about in my book in the beginning of my book that it was very difficult many, many moons ago when there were fewer choices in technology and it was really tough.
We tried everything under the sign I now have.
Three adult children.
So it was a long time ago, but it was very difficult and my fertility doctor at the time said and I was a there practicing as a therapist in the area.
And he said, why don't you look into this industry? I think you could really provide some help.
So I was working in maternal health care and all sorts of related areas.
And so I started going to the American Society for reproductive medicine's annual conference, which I still attend thirty years later.
Every year, I really love it and got some training and just continued to study and learn And then I worked for many years at several fertility clinics.
I worked at a very large fertility clinic in New York, and my last job was as director of mental health services for, uh, Alun fertility and gay parents to be.
And I left there to start my podcast and start my community platform because at this stage of my life, it it was wonderful to work in a clinic.
I created an embryo donation program, the only open donor program on the East Coast.
I created lots and lots of wonderful assets inside of the fertility clinic, but I could only speak to one person at a time.
And so I decided since I have all of this experience and I see what patients go through time and time again, I'd like to help them on a wider scale so I publish my book.
And now I have my community platform with lots of courses and support groups and all sorts of things that people can access very easily on their phone or on their computer.
And that way, they can get these resources that I've created over decades of experience.
That's amazing.
I I had a feeling there must have been some kind of inside information there that you had experience, and I love that because as, again, somebody who's been through it, you're always looking for somebody to connect with who kind of under stands at, especially from a therapist perspective, I think, as a patient.
Right? We all speak for myself and wanting in years of going to therapy, I always wondered, because traditionally therapists don't really tell you their story about what it is that they're going through, whether I was going through my divorce.
I was going through a fertility or whatever.
I remember always thinking, do they really understand what I'm going through? And so I think somebody who not only has worked in a clinic and seen it from that perspective, so they know you know, you're there every other day, every every day, etcetera, waiting for the test results to come through and or having your own story.
I think really goes a long way from a a patient's mental health to know that they're being met by somebody who really truly understands what the process is.
Um, and I think in the membership community, that's huge too because there's a lot of I don't wanna people to take this the wrong way, but there's a lot of private equity that that's coming into clinics right now that are taking hold of the structure of where the clinics are going.
And I think having a membership by somebody who has been through it, who has also been on the inside of a clinic who understands that but yet is still trying to help from a perspective on a wider level is really needed and, um, super valued from somebody not only who's gone through it, but also helps people who are still going through it.
So what do you find that people are seeking you out most from either one on ones if you still do that or just with your membership.
Are they, like, just starting their journey? Are they far down the road of fertility? Well, I think to your, um, earlier point, It's really important for people to get helpful information, and it used to be that there were licensed therapists in every fertility clinic in the country.
And we have lots of guidelines within within the American study for reproductive medicine about how to handle certain situations, like a surrogacy journey or during a conception journey.
And those pieces of the puzzle are being formed out to lots of groups that really don't know anything about the clinic or the patients And it's very hard to assess whether or not they're doing a good job.
In fact, I've seen many, unfortunately, many reports come across my desk where a donor or a surrogate should have never passed.
At all.
Hello.
And clearly have like mental health issues or some other problem.
And so I think it's very difficult for people now, especially because the program doesn't have anyone to go to to help them and the patients don't have anyone to go to to help them with evidence based information.
As you know, you know, doctor Google did not go to medical school.
So unfortunately, people are getting lots of information that's wrong.
And so I really aim to help people with evidence based information so they'll know what's actually happening in the industry.
Um, I read the research constantly, and I know what's happening inside the industry.
In this way, people will know, and I agree with you.
I think that patients feel so frustrated when their therapist doesn't know anything about what they're going through and they've spent the whole forty five minutes just trying to explain the procedure they're having.
It can be really, really disheartening.
Right.
I know when I was going through it, the only therapist that they had either, well, on-site that they were associated with, was doing the psych evaluations, again, for the circuses and that, things like that.
And then they would farm out to any individual therapist if you were looking for kind of additional help with your own kind of mental health through the process.
And that's where I found that there was this big disconnect.
I think in the last five years, it's really become this amazing industry where a lot of therapists are like, oh, there there's a need there and people that in the past may have not talked about their own journey are open to talking about it more so.
Which I think is really great.
So for anybody who is in the process right now and really struggling, I I recommend to try to find either a membership group like Lisa's or a therapist that has said openly that they've been through this because don't underestimate the the power and the significance of your own mental health through this journey.
Again, there's been evidence that shows that it truly is such a stressful time and going through it and having somebody to help you through it will get you better results.
I think we always feel like we got this and you like white knuckle through it, like, okay, I just gotta get to the next time, and then you finally realize, okay, this is actually more complicated than I thought it was going to be.
And unfortunately, I think people go down the road too far only just try to back up and then get the support.
Where do you think is kind of the best point of entry for somebody to get mental health support that's going through a fertility journey? Well, it's funny because so many people think about their careers early on.
Right? They think about, well, what am I going to do with? How am I going to get into this graduate school or climb the ladder in this organization, and where do I want it end up in five years from now.
And unfortunately, we don't really look at our reproductive life the same way, and it's so essential.
I've done research in every one of these areas.
In donor consumption, in surrogacy, in egg freezing, and so many issues kind of met back to that idea that the best interventions, early intervention, that it's so important to really think about how you're going to plan your family the way you would plan your career.
And people often don't, unfortunately.
And then as you said, they were just trying to scramble to backtrack, and it's so essential that they think about it.
The other problem is and what I find is a really, really difficult issue for so many people and where people make mistakes all the time is that they don't realize how stressful it is and they may feel stressed but they don't realize that it will cloud their decision making.
And so when they're going down a certain path, maybe they don't really wanna go down that path, but they feel like they're on this treadmill so they have to keep going or maybe They choose this donor because they like her and maybe she's not the right one for them or they choose this agency because the agency has a nice website and the doctor seems nice which are all nice things but they're not going to move the needle in your future child's health.
So if you can calm your nervous system first and then get the right information, you can digest it better.
What would some of that first right information be that wouldn't move the needle that you would advise Well, um, so I'll give you I I can give you examples in each one of these.
So for example, I published a paper, um, on egg freezing, and women I worked very early on in the egg freezing process in the fertility clinic where I used to work, I see I used to see all the egg freezing patients, and they had there were one of two clinics in the country that were seeing a lot of egg freezers early on.
And so As I spoke to these people who wanted to freeze their eggs, they were so nervous about freezing as many batches of eggs as they possibly could.
And they kept on thinking how many do I need so that I can secure my future family And so, of course, there's no guarantee.
And when you're older, which many of these women were at the time, it's even more difficult.
But what I discovered was that some of these women Once we asked them, would consider non genetic parenthood? So they would consider having a a child through adoption or a child through donor conception if the eggs didn't work.
So what I decided was that these people, once they could see that, those people would not need to freeze as many eggs as the people who said I really cannot have a child who's not genetically related to me, then I know I would rather not have kids.
So the story was different for both of those groups of people, but if they were able to calm their nervous system first and get that right information and a different way of thinking about it, they may have made different choices.
And There's a big part of my, um, my book about that in donor conception.
I have, um, a series of steps on how to choose a donor, and it's really based on this idea that if you're thinking about it differently, your choices will be totally And what you mentioned calming the nervous system? What are some things that you suggest for people to calm their nervous system? Because I think oftentimes they don't recognize that it's even out of whack.
Right? They're so used to being in this state of stress that it becomes normal.
Um, so they don't realize that their their nervous system is actually on edge.
So what do you suggest for people to get to a point of what does that look like for them.
And, of course, it's different for everybody, but average.
It's it it is different for everyone.
And I think people have to kind of think about it in a way that works for them.
But what I like to do is kind of think about three three different categories.
So one would be being able to release negative feelings, when they stress, find ways to do that in a productive way.
So maybe some people will drink or smoke, Of course, if we exercise and let go of the cortisol or do things like that, it can really help us get rid of some of the negative energy in our bodies.
And then bringing good things into your life is also another way to help yourself.
So doing some nice things for yourself, making yourself feel better, going to therapy, having someone to talk to, getting a support group, planning nice things with your family or partner, there's all sorts of ways to bring good things into your life.
And then the third part is managing overwhelm.
So I think one of the hallmarks of going through fertility treatment is feeling overwhelmed and out of control.
And people very often will say, well, I'm overwhelmed, and so I need to quit my job and stop doing so many things.
And it's actually the opposite because, you know, there's this old saying that, uh, you know, a watch pot never boils.
If you sit there and focus on it more, it's just going to make time last longer.
It's going to make it feel like it takes twice as long.
It's gonna be much more stress all.
So if we do things that are pleasurable, not work related, but pleasurable things that we can see a result for our efforts.
So whether you like to redecorate your living room or start needle pointing or take a class with your partner on how to make sushi, whatever it is, if you start putting those things into your life, even if you feel like you're really busy.
I don't have time for this, you can feel differently because your body doesn't really recognize.
Oh, I'm redecorating my living room, and that's not half as important as my fertility treatment, but your body will recognize it as something that you've done, something that you have control of because your body otherwise feels so out of control, and it's nice to be able to give your body something that it can feel like it has control over to help balance your system.
So I'd like to think about those three different categories and kind of looking at them like a menu and being able to pick the things that work for you each day.
And for some people, some won't work more than others.
And also in different parts of your journey, some things will work more than others.
But I like taking different pieces from each one of those categories so that people can start to think about ways to help themselves get through this process.
That's great advice.
You also mentioned decision making getting clouded, and I know for me, I remember saying, like, I don't know what my gut is telling me to do.
I don't know if we should go this route or that route or whatever it may be because I was just so stressed at the time.
What do you suggest when people are on the path and they they are starting to consider donor conception? Those are big things that you don't ever expect when I'm a young girl that somebody's ever gonna say to me.
Maybe you should use donor eggs or male, you know, you might need to consider donor sperm or an embryo adoption or something like that.
What do you suggest for people to try to start to get their head around? This might be something that could be an option for us because that first initial suggestion can be pretty jarring sometimes.
Yes.
And and very often, the pay the clinics that see the patients that use third party reproduction use donor conception or very often not the same clinics where the patient started because the patients hear it from one doctor and they shut it down.
And then they wanna go to another doctor who's going to tell them something different and the doctor tells them the same thing and they shut it down and maybe it's a third one where they finally say, okay.
I'm I'm gonna be able to do this.
And it's really a difficult decision and people have to really consider that their desire to be a parent is more important for them at that moment than having a genetically related child.
And that goes for all all of those options, germs, for my daughter, egg, and donor embryos.
So I just wanted to mention that the you mentioned donor adoption.
So donor, just for your audience, donor, um, embryos are embryos that people have used and there may be excess embryos that are out there that have not been actually transferred.
And so they've made these embryos and they need to give them to somebody else.
Embrio adoption is when you have decided that life begins at conception.
So it's usually really relegated to Christian white right wing organizations.
And very often, these organizations that have embryo adoption programs have kind of a backdoor funnel to a lot of political groups.
So usually they're fueled by them because they're trying to advance the personhood laws in this country.
And the more, um, evidence they can accumulate that can say, look, all of these people have come to us and they consider life beginning at conception, they're going through the adoption process.
They're not getting an embryo from somebody who's created them.
They're getting an embryo and doing the home study, doing the paperwork.
All of the adoption process to get this this embryo.
And so they're in effect saying this is a human.
And so it's it's a very different process for people.
And of course the embryo adoption is they're not open to, you know, gay families or single parents or people who aren't Christian.
And I think I was really just meaning any sort of change in direction, whether that be surrogacy or whatnot.
Of course, if you're gonna go down any of this road, you wanna make sure you're you have to con you have to work with an attorney anyway.
So your attorneys will inform you of all the differences of what you're going through and what's accepted or not accepted and what the differences are and whatnot.
But more so from the decision perspective of like, wow, I never thought I would be having a surrogate or I never thought I would be using donor eggs from an emotional perspective of how to get your mind around that rather than you know, of course, every state is different from a legal perspective every one offer.
So, yes, always contact an attorney through any of these processes.
But just from that initial statement of, like you said, maybe you go to two or three second opinion to second or third opinion to say is this really true that I need to do this route? But then once you get your head around that, do you think that it's by the time they're at that second or third dark? Doctor, they're like, okay.
Emotionally, I'm I'm good to do this, or do you think that there's more work that usually needs to be done to start to go down that road from a mental, emotional perspective to get on board with.
Okay.
This is what my future is gonna look like rather than when I thought it was gonna be maybe.
Well, I I think there's a spectrum.
So I talk about this in my book.
I had one patient who said, you know, if I bake a cake with a very crocker mix or I bake a cake from scratch, it's gonna taste the same.
I'm perfectly happy using donor conception.
But then I worked with another woman for a very long time who really struggled to choose a donor.
She really struggled through her pregnancy.
She had a really hard time in her pregnancy, and she had twins.
And she had a boy and a girl.
And the girl she named twice before she actually felt like she had ownership of her her role as a mother because it was so difficult.
Now she's she loves her kids and the kids are older now and she has a very happy life, but it took her a really long time.
And I think people need to honor that.
And I don't think that anyone needs to be fully there in order to do it.
In fact, I think people wait too long and they think, well, I should fully grieve over the loss of my genetics and I should fully be embracing this, and I think that could be a problem because what people don't realize is you have two issues going on at the same time.
You're upset that you don't have a child and you're upset about the idea of not using your genetics.
And when you're going through fertility treatment, both of those things are so intertwined that you can't tell.
You feel like they're the same.
But then once you have your child, both of those pieces separate, and so you may still be upset and think gosh, I wish my daughter had my eye color or my dimples, but this part, the part of not feeling like I'm, you know, I'm alone.
I don't have a, child yet is gone.
Right? You now are a parent and you're loving your child and your child is loving you, and that is so wonderful.
But people confuse it and think that just because they have these feelings, um, upset about the idea that I'm going to pick the stranger who's gonna give me the genetics for the closest relationship I'm gonna have in my life because they're upset.
It means that they're not going to love their child.
And that's not true.
They will love their child.
Their child's going to love them.
They're gonna have a great life.
But this piece, the piece about the genetic laws for them is very personal and just belongs to them.
It doesn't belong to the child.
I think that's a great point.
Also at what I've seen happen that works seems to work well for people that I've worked with is to get in contact with somebody who's done it and talk to them who has their one or two babies via egg donation or surrogacy or whatever it may be and talk to them about their experience because I think that also helps because you'll see that anyone on the playground, whether they're biological children or not, they're like, loving them the same, disciplining them the same, you know, it's it's no different and often what I see ironically is that they actually look more like the children, their own children than like me and my three children look.
Like, my boys don't look anything like me and my clients that have, you know, donor conception.
They look way more like them.
So I think sometimes you're right.
They get, you know, too fixated on the eye color or the dimples or whatever.
And if you speak to somebody who has their beautiful family now as a result of that, they're like, we don't even think about that anymore.
You know, that's not even a concept, and they do wish that they would have done it sooner.
Um, I have yet to meet anybody who's gone down that path and they're like, oh, no.
I think we needed more time.
Um, perhaps those people are out there.
I just it hasn't been my experience.
So I I really recommend finding somebody who's gone through it themselves.
So how can people find you work with you and your membership and just kind of be in your energy? Well, my website is familybuilding.
net and also, um, at the center for family building on Instagram and TikTok, and my podcast is building your family.
My book book is called Building Your Family, and I have them, as I said, a four step process, We're talking to donor conceived children, a five step process for choosing a donor.
They're very easy frameworks to use.
And I think, you know, that people can have an an easier road if they do those two things.
If they can regulate the nervous system, and if they can get the right information, their life could be a lot easier.
And so hopefully that will happen.
That was my plan.
Great.
I encourage everybody to do that because, again, even with within relationships, right, one one spouse might not be on the same wavelength or they might wanna have a master's degree of that donor and the other person's like, I just want blue eyes.
I don't care about what, you know, the education and whatnot.
So I think any guide to help you get to those decisions is helpful because, again, bring all the help that you can get from preconception to, to post.
I think it's, you know, ask for the help and receive it, I think, is a really beautiful thing.
Well, thank you for your time and sharing your information.
And now with your grown children, to be able to pioneer some of this information for the rest of us that are going through it, I think is really helpful, and I look forward to our past crossing again soon.
I do as well.
Thank you so much for having me
